[0:00:53] JW: All right. Welcome to The Public Health Joy Podcast. On this episode, we have Dr. Marshae McNeal, who is core faculty at Walden University. It’s interesting because I don’t often get to talk to a lot of public health researchers and professionals on my podcast who are from Mississippi. Marshae is a native of Hattiesburg, Mississippi and Hattiesburg is where I live as well, but I’m a native of Jackson, Mississippi. I always like to tell where I met my guests or my first encounter with them.

My first encounter with Dr. Marshae McNeal was when I was coordinating my first job, actually. It was my first job out of my master public health program. I don’t even know if you knew that, Marshae. It was my first job out of my master of public health program, and I had been hired to coordinate a community-based participatory research project. Marshae, you are one of our community members who served on our community advisory team. That was exciting for me to kind of get to know you through the process and our other community members through the process. But also, it was my first time going through the process, and I learned a lot. You all taught me a whole lot during that process. I’m going to let you go ahead and tell us and our listeners, who you are, what you do, and a little bit about your journey in public health research.

[0:02:19] MM: Okay. Thank you, Joyee. I will say, you did an awesome job leading that project. You really, really did.

[0:02:25] JW: Well, thank you.

[0:02:26] MM: You’re welcome. As you said, I’m native of Hattiesburg. I went to the University of Southern Mississippi, graduated with a undergraduate degree in community health sciences and health promotion, a master of public health in epidemiology and biostats, and a doctorate degree in adult education. All of those from the University of Southern Mississippi. Then, at that time, I was working with the Community Mental Health Center, I was doing drug and alcohol prevention, prevention coordinator for that. I did that for about 11 years with the Mental Health Center, and basically going out and teaching schools, teaching colleges, teaching students about the dangers of drugs, and alcohol, and also, in the community in various places doing that.

Prior to that, I was in breast and cervical cancer education. Doing that, and then I decided that I wanted to make a career change, and go into higher education. I started working adjunct with the University of Southern Mississippi, and then got a full-time position as assistant professor with Louisiana State University, Shreveport. I was there teaching community health sciences and master of public health classes, and then transition back to Hattiesburg, and now teaching full-time with Walden University in their Master of Public Health Program, and eventually in their DRPH, so Doctor of Public Health Program. That’s my journey of how I get here and some of my background related to that. I kind of fell into public health, so to speak.

[0:04:07] JW: Don’t we all?

[0:04:08] MM: We do.

[0:04:09] JW: I’ve never met anyone who’s just been like, “Oh, I’ve always dreamed of being in public health.” Nobody ever says that. We all just like, “Oh, I fell into it. I fumbled into it. Public health found me. I don’t know where it came from.”

[0:04:24] MM: Exactly. Because when I started out, I went to Jones Junior College first as an English major. Then I said, “I don’t want to do that” and I changed to athletic training. When I went to USM, I was like, “I don’t like this anymore.” The catalog is how I found community health. I said, “Now, I want to be in the health field. I don’t want to be a nurse, so what else can I do?” By browsing the catalog, I found community health, and I loved it. That’s just what I stuck with from there, and I got into adult education, because one of the professors in public health told me to diversify. He suggested adult education, so that’s how I get into that. Now, you see more adult education coming in to public health, because basically, we are educating adults on the health education side. That’s kind of how I got into that.

[0:05:16] JW: I’m writing down points like, “Oh, you’re saying so much good stuff. But one of the things that you mentioned was – you went to – you said you went to Jones County Junior College.

[0:05:25] MM: Mm-hmm.

[0:05:27] JW: I think sometimes, in my experience working with some graduate students, sometimes they’re worried. Like I attended community college or junior college, I don’t have research experience, how do I get into the field? I’m like, “Who told you all that lie?” Community –

[0:05:47] MM: To me, that was a great choice for my pre-reqs, for all my basic courses, my core courses. Taking them in that smaller environment, to begin with, was a lot better than when I got to the university. I was like, “Oh, all these classes are huge” and it didn’t look any different. Hey, there’s nothing wrong with going to a community college, nothing at all.

[0:06:11] JW: Absolutely. You can get the experience; you can get everything that you need –

[0:06:14] MM: You can.

[0:06:16] JW: – at a community college at a junior college. I think it’s important to dispel that myth that –

[0:06:24] MM: Yes, it is.

[0:06:26] JW: Community colleges have some of the best resources. Sometimes I’m like, “Man, I wish I had gone to a community college too” because I’m like, “They had some of the best resources and programs that you would never know about.”

[0:06:42] MM: They do. You are so right. I would never discount it at all. No.

[0:06:52] JW: Absolutely. If anything, it can add to your experience.

[0:06:56] MM: Mm-hmm. It can. Those are some good contexts, yes.

[0:07:02] JW: Yes, definitely opportunities for networking. Like you mentioned, it’s important to diversify your skill set. There are going to be some skills that you learn, and that you pick up at a community college that you may not pick up at a four-year university in the same way.

[0:07:18] MM: I really like the small environment, the more one-on-one teaching that you can get from those smaller environments and things. I enjoy, like for example, the [inaudible 0:07:29]. I enjoyed it at Jones, because there weren’t many people. When I got to USM, it was like, “Oh, wow.” It was totally different for me. It’s just different. Then, you also feel a lot more community, you know people, and you have the same experience, the same experience.

[0:07:50] JW: Yes. I think also, probably the level of support as well. A lot of these four-year universities, it can be difficult to get the close-knit support and close-knit community that you need. At a community college or junior college, you get to have that experience and you know what it’s like to get a different level of support. That’s good too. I think it’s also important. Some of the other things you mentioned were career changes, right? I think sometimes, we have this, and I don’t know if it’s because like, I’m a millennial and so my parents are baby boomers, so it’s like, you got to find a job and stay there for 20 years, that type of thing. We’re not really doing that anymore.

[0:08:32] MM: See, I’m on that line, that generational line, kind of in between. I also had that mindset, because I was at job with the prevention for 11 years. Don’t get me wrong, it was a good job, and I loved it. But it got to the point where it can like, “Okay, I need some different. I need something different.”

[0:08:55] JW: Yes. I think that’s the thing, it’s okay that you have a career change. It will, once again, it allows you to diversify your skill sets. It allows you to get experience in different places. When you start getting into public health research, that will only benefit you.

[0:09:13] MM: It will. It will.

[0:09:15] JW: And be able to connect with people, different types of people based on different types of experiences that you’ve had. That’s super important for research and it’s okay to change your career. It’s okay if you don’t know what you want to do right now.

[0:09:30] MM: Exactly. It is perfectly okay. Yes. When I was in my PhD program, we have a class actually on health, health education. There was one of the courses in the adult education PhD program, and that’s where it kind of spur like, “Hey, I can put these two together, how I can come up with my idea for my dissertation.” At the same time, when I was working at the Mental Health Center, they sent me to be trained to be a mental health first aid. I don’t know if y’all have ever heard of mental health first aid, but that is just like first aid, CPR, what do you do when someone’s in distress. What do you do when someone’s having a mental health crisis? How do you react and what do you do in those instances? That’s when I first started the term of mental health literacy.

The founder of menta health first aid is from Australia, he coined this term, and he came up with this whole training. I was like, “Hey, how can I look at this meal health literacy, that’s related to public health and get it in line with my adult education research, and keep them together for my dissertation?” That’s what I did with my research there.

[0:10:42] JW: One of the things that you’re saying that stood out to me is, and for some people who might be listening might be like, “Wait a minute. PhD and adult education shouldn’t have a PhD in public health?” So I think it’s also important to note, you don’t have to get a PhD in public health, to work in public health, or to do public health research. I don’t have a PhD in public health either. My PhD is in education as well. Definitely, another myth to dispel. You don’t have to stick in public health as far as your degree is, because everything is public health. It’s up to you to figure out how do you acknowledge that everything is in public health, or public health is in everything? And how do you connect what it is you want to do or what resonates with you? How do you make that connection to public health? That’s a really cool feature of public health too, that you can be super innovative, and versatile, and all of that stuff with public health and creative.

[0:11:41] MM: Yes, because it crosses so many different aspects. I had a student, for instance, who was working on creating a program planning, looking at programming. He said, “Well, I want to look at crime, that’s not a health problem.” He was like, “That’s not related to public health.” I said, “Yes, it is related. It is very related to public health.” He’s in the program, and he still couldn’t get past that mindset of what is health. It’s like, again, defining what health is for people and see all these ways we cross, publicly across everything. Nothing brought that out more than the pandemic, but that’s a whole another story.

[0:12:25] JW: Yes, very true. I mean, the way that people are able to just be so creative with public health, and I tell them myself. When I was in high school, I was a theater geek. Okay, I was a theater geek. But people use drama in public health, people –

[0:12:45] MM: Yes, they do.

[0:12:46] JW: – theater in public health. I’ve heard of laughter therapy, or play therapy, recreational therapy, these things that bring us joy in our lives, because they make us feel good. They make us happy; they improve our health and wellbeing. Those are things that are important to public health.

[0:13:04] MM: I wish I could remember the name of the group when I was working at the Community Mental Health Center. But all across the state, we would all get together. At South Panola High School, they had a whole group who went around the country, actually, they made it all the way to Hawaii, which is, I think is awesome. But they took the prevention stories, put the drug, the alcohol, and they made plays. Actually, what she said, they made skit. They perform skits to music, and song, and dance to present to different high schools, and different groups all around the country. I think they even went internationally with it.

But again, it was the drama part of it, the singing part, the acting part, and they put them in with that prevention part. Then again, essentially, they’re doing – prevention is a part of public health. Then, that was just awesome. Like I said, there’s so many different things that you can do. When I first got into community health, it is what it was called. It wasn’t public health. Public health was the term it was changing to at that time. Not very many people knew what that was. When I always tell people that, “I’m in school for public health” or “I’m in school for community health.” “Okay. Now, what is that?” I’m so happy that now people are starting to recognize actually what the field is. It has grown so much in the time that I’ve been working, and I’ve been working for about 20 years. It has changed a whole lot.

[0:14:35] JW: Absolutely. With your career path, what has been the most challenging part of it? And being involved in public health research, what’s been most challenging for you?

[0:14:46] MM: Let’s see. The most challenging part would be, one, getting people to recognize what it actually is. One challenge that I had, and I always go back to when I – because that’s my longest job that I have at the Community Mental Health Center. But getting people to recognize the importance of it, whenever we would have a job to come up in the provincial field, they would always want someone with a social work degree. I was like, “This job is made for a person and public health.” Then as time passed, you saw more and more people with public health degrees get the jobs, but they wanted somebody with psychology, or social work, or something in that field. I’m like, this is a great fit for somebody in public health. One of the greatest challenges that I saw was getting people to respect what we do and know what we do on that end.

Community work is hard. So I say sometimes, that can also be a challenge, because, again, whatever it is that you are so passionate about, and that you know it’s so important, and that they know, trying to get there by the end to that. We’re such a grassroots field, that sometimes, trying to get their community buy-in, get that community stake, and get them to get excited about what you’re excited about can be a challenge as well. That is one of the things that I have seen and that experience to be a challenge, but it’s so rewarding. I always tell students that if you do nothing else, make sure you volunteer, volunteer, and join something. That always helps you make connections and gets you shown and then – now, I’m going to help you with your career path, but it also helps you once you start doing the work.

[0:16:29] JW: Absolutely. I will say, the point about social work, right? It’s funny because I’ve worked in social work, I don’t have not one – not none social work degree. We from the south, y’all, we say “None.”

[0:16:45] MM: Yes, we do.

[0:16:46] JW: Not none social work degree. But guess what, I worked for the Department of Social Work, because social work and public health are so closely related. I’ve often heard people say like, they’re like first cousins, it’s hard to have one without the other. For those who might be – you’re getting in Indeed, or your job search, and you’re typing public health, that perfect job for you, or that perfect opportunity for you may not be listed as public health. It may be in a field like social work, it may be in a field like psychology, it may be in something completely different. But once again, if you’re recognizing that public health is in everything, you’re open to exploring different paths and different fields. Because they need us in different places, just like they do in social work. They need us in all these different places because although they’re closely related, the training is very different. That’s super important.

Then, I want to also talk about – you talking about that it’s rewarding, to work with community, but it’s also super challenging. It’s hard. On the community advisory team, we became like family. That’s kind of the cool part about research is because this is the point where research meets relationships, and you start to build connections with people. Y’all taught me a whole lot. Y’all taught me more in that experience.

[0:18:20] MM: Yes.

[0:18:22] JW: It was definitely hard, especially with me and it being my first time, and I don’t care what’s in – all these textbooks back here. I don’t care what’s in them textbooks, okay?

[0:18:35] MM: Nothing teaches you better than the real-world experience.

[0:18:40] JW: Nothing. Nothing will teach you more than the real-world experience. It’s totally different, totally different.

[0:18:47] MM: It is.

[0:18:49] JW: Definitely getting that community experience, and understanding what it’s like to work with people, because a book can’t tell you all the different personalities you’re going to encounter, all the different lived experiences of people that you learn how to navigate, and how to figure out, how to work with them in building what works best for them and their community.

[0:19:15] MM: Exactly.

[0:19:15] JW: Because I say all the time, as a researcher, it ain’t about you. It ain’t got nothing to do with you. It won’t matter what you want. It won’t matter what you want to do. If it’s not what your community wants, or needs, it’s not going to matter.

[0:19:32] MM: Exactly. I have experience of working with community health workers when I was doing the breast and cervical cancer education. Your community health workers are people in the community you’ve recruited to do the education, to reach out and get other people involved. They are so serious about what they do, and then they will flat out say, “That’s not going to work.” Like, “No, that don’t matter.” Like once you said now, then that’s not going to work. You learn so much from working with the people who work there. They cannot stand for you to come in and tell them, “Well, this is what you need. Work with them and find out exactly, and they will tell you what they need.” Then, that’s it. That was such a great experience working with them. They were called the [inaudible 0:20:21]. I don’t know if the [inaudible 0:20:22] are still around, but I loved working with them. We’re doing it.

[0:20:29] JW: Yes. That’s the thing, like the honesty and the transparency that you need, because community members are going to protect what’s theirs. There is no negotiation in that. They are going to protect what’s theirs, especially if they’ve already had poor relationships with researchers, bad experiences with the researchers. You might be the best researcher and come in there like, “Oh, I just want to listen to you. I just want to understand your experience.” They’re going to be like, “Let’s see.”

[0:21:00] MM: Why? Why? What do you want?

[0:21:04] JW: Why are you here?

[0:21:05] MM: Tell me why you need to know who it is, and what are you going to do once you leave? That is always, you know, what are you going to do with this once you leave? I’ve heard that before from community members, like people always want to come in, and get all this information from us, and say, “They’re coming to help us, but then they don’t come back and do anything. That makes it much harder when you’re doing research. You have to keep that in mind, those experiences. Yes.

[0:21:32] JW: Yeah. Just making yourself open to being humbled to the experience, and listening to the people, because it may not be you, it may be a bunch of people who messed it up before you.

[0:21:44] MM: Right. So can you take it personally?

[0:21:48] JW: Don’t take it personally, but the fact is, they messed it up. They made it harder for you. You just have to kind of suck it up and figure it out. It just means it’s going to take a little bit more time, and that’s okay. But I want to ask if you could change anything. If you could change anything about your career path and your experience, is there anything that you would do differently?

[0:22:15] MM: Honestly, I don’t think I would change anything. I say that, I guess because I have this [inaudible 0:22:21]. Just because I’ve had these lived experiences, I think I cannot be as successful as a faculty member, and teaching students had I not had that experience working in the field. I think that gives me so much more to add to what’s in the textbook, and what’s out there. It’s the fact that I had that experience. I’m thankful and I’m glad that I have that, so that I would be able to be where I am. I guess, if I had to pick the one thing, is that I did not get my dream job, which was working for the CDC. Who knows, I might still get that one day, but that was my dream that I would go to Atlanta, and work for the CDC, and I do this.

I don’t think that there’s anything that I would change, because it all made me better for who I am. I’m still continuing to grow and learn all the time. I’m always looking for other ways in which I can do things like doing – are also members of Delta So Phi, which is a society for [inaudible 0:23:29] education. Through that, I’m glad that I’m getting more involved with them. Because still, that’s another avenue and something different to look at into do. I’m constantly looking at other ways to learn and grow. But I’m thankful and I’m grateful for the path that I’ve had and the people that I’ve met along the way, because they are who helped me get to where I am. So, so appreciate it.

[0:23:54] JW: Yes, yes, I totally understand that and I feel the same way. All the good, the bad, and the ugly experience, all of it helped to shape you know where I am today. Like you said, being able to serve, and for those who might be listening, definitely check out your professional organizations. Even if you’re a student, a lot of professional organizations have student memberships. You get to be part of the process, get experience, network with other people, society of public health education is one of them. For those who might be in the Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana region, we have the Delta chapter. There are different chapters all across the nation for a society of public health education. Definitely check into that.

Also, your state’s public health associations are great places to join as a professional member. You might have an experience to serve as a delegate, or serve on the executive committee, or those type of things. Those are things that continue to add to your skills. Those are leadership skills. Those are opportunities for you to continue to build up on your career as a public health researcher or a public health professional, so definitely look into those for sure. Let’s see. We have a –

[0:25:13] MM: Coalitions and different things.

[0:25:15] JW: Yes, yes. Coalitions are great too, and a lot of coalition’s are going to be local to your area. If you join your local professional memberships of either the Society of Public Health Education, or your Public Health Association, or I think some of them are called Area Health Education Centers.

[0:25:32] MM: AHEC.

[0:25:33] JW: AHEC, yeah. Some places have community health worker associations, or training associations as well. Those are some great opportunities there to get plugged in. Just as we get ready to kind of wrap up a little bit, I think I’m going to ask this last question. What brings you joy in the work that you do?

[0:25:58] MM: I’ll do it two different ways. A far as a faculty member, it is when my students get it. When I can tell that light bulb has gone off, and they understand, and they know what it is, and they can say, “Oh, I got this.” Because there’s so many different facets to public health, and I want them to see all the different opportunities, and all the different things that are there. Then, understanding who they will be working with, and how to get an appreciation for these communities, and not coming. They don’t have these judgmental biases, and kind of put those aside and start to look at, who we’re actually doing this work for in that respect. That brings me joy when the light bulb goes off.

I guess I can say the same when I was actually in the field, and working, and reading research, and different things like that. That just brings me so much joy that our field is just growing and evolving. We have all these exciting new people, ready to hit the ground running, and just go with it with all these innovative ideas. I’m like, “Oh, I never would have thought of that.” I love to see it. I love that. The ideas and things that come up, and I’m like, “You should really look into publishing that. You should really think about taking that further. You should actually try to see if you can get that implemented in some way.” I just love it. That brings me joy.

[0:27:28] JW: Yes. I can definitely say, I agree. When students start getting it, it’s like, “I know it sounds cheesy, but as faculty members, we get like so excited.

[0:27:37] MM: We do.

[0:27:39] JW: We’re your inner cheerleader. We’re just so excited that you get what we’re trying to explain to you. To see you go out to these younger millennials, and Gen Z, y’all about to change the game.

[0:27:53] MM: Yes, indeed.

[0:27:56] JW: Like it’s about to be over with. It might take us a few years to get there, but I definitely think I’m excited for the future of public health. Because I think, a lot of us have gotten to the point where we’re just not taking those stuff. Like you can’t just do anything. You can’t just do anything and get away with it. We’re speaking up more. We’re standing up more. We are fighting for, fighting harder. It’s exciting to see that because we’re not that far removed from the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, or Henrietta Lacks, or all this experimentation that happened in medical research. We are not that far removed from it.

It’s exciting to see a change in the tide, and what us younger folks can do and the changes that we’re trying to make. Now granted, it’s not going to be easy. It’s not going to be an easy ride at all.

[0:29:00] MM: No, it’s not.

[0:29:01] JW: But the fact that we can come together and we do have all these tools and resources, social media, we’re able to connect with each other differently, and in a different capacity than before. That can be extremely powerful in how we connect communities to different resources, and fight with each other, to fight for change. I’m really excited for the of future public health. I hear people all the time say, “What do you think the job market is going to look like? What do you think the career outlook is going to look like?” Well, I definitely don’t think public health is going to be going out of style.

[0:29:43] MM: I don’t either. I do not. I do not. Like I say, more people are becoming aware of what the field to use. The pandemic made everyone very aware of what the field is. Now, people can see that it’s not just that though, that’s not all that the is. It’s a whole lot more related to the field. A whole lot more.

[0:30:07] JW: Yes. I’m like, When Disney starts getting public health officers for their cruise lines, I’m like, “I think we’re going to be all right y’all.

[0:30:13] MM: We’re going to be just fine.

[0:30:15] JW: I think our job market is going to be all right. We are going to be all right.

[0:30:19] MM: We’re going to be just fine. Yes, indeed.

[0:30:21] JW: Yes, it is. I don’t think that you’re going to have to worry about any of that. Just keep on tracking, keep on going, keep on fighting.

[0:30:29] MM: Yes, keep on keeping on.

[0:30:30] JW: Yes. That’s going to be all right. We’re dropping all of this southern talk.

[0:30:34] MM: Yes, we are.

[0:30:35] JW: And I love it. I love it. As we wrap up, we definitely appreciate you coming on and having this conversation.

[0:30:43] MM: Thanks for inviting me.

[0:30:46] JW: Absolutely. We always love having native Mississippians on because it just ain’t no place like Mississippi. I know Mississippi gets a bad rep. It gets a bad rep.

[0:30:56] MM: We do, but we are some good people.

[0:30:59] JW: Good people, good people. The hospitality, the love, the community, you’re not going to find it anywhere else. Mississippi, there’s something special about Mississippi.

[0:31:11] MM: It is. It is.

[0:31:13] JW: If listeners wanted to get in touch with you, or wanting to connect with you, maybe if they have more questions or anything, how can they reach out to you?

[0:31:25] MM: My LinkedIn profile, which is my name Marshae McNeal. It might be Marshae A. McNeal, but it’s there for my LinkedIn profile. Anyone can reach out to me there, send me a message, or whatever and I’ll be happy to answer anything that you would like.

[0:31:40] JW: Well, thank you so much. I hope whoever’s listening, I hope you enjoy this episode. Thank you, Dr. McNeal for joining us on The Public Health Joy Podcast.

[0:31:52] MM: Thank you, Joyee.

[OUTRO]

[0:31:55] JW: I am so grateful for this time we got to spend together. If you enjoyed this episode, I need you to subscribe, rate, and leave a review. For more information on transforming public health research into positive community impact, visit www.joyeewashington.com. This is where research meets relationship. I’ll see you next time on The Public Health Joy Podcast.

[END]